Fellows Dr. Judith Bachmann and Dr. Femi Jegede in conversation with Prof. Dr. Eva Spies
Media records
Abstract
- Abstract
- Fellows Dr. Judith Bachmann and Dr. Femi Jegede talk about their tandem project wiith their host Prof. Dr. Eva Spies. The fellows are working on the project “The Conquest of Distance” regarding Ifá practices approaching the subject from different angles.
People & roles
Origins & context
- Title
- Fellows Dr. Judith Bachmann and Dr. Femi Jegede in conversation with Prof. Dr. Eva Spies
- Language
- English
- Podcast series
-
Cluster Conversations
- Date
- March 21, 2023
Rights & access
- Extent
- 43 minutes, 46 seconds
Identifiers & sources
Further details
- Episode number
- 4
Full text
- Transcript
-
[music]
Speaker 1: Cluster Conversations, a podcast by Africa Multiple.
Speaker 1: Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in. We're here at our podcast with the fellows of the Africa Multiple cluster. My name is Eva Spies and I welcome my two guests here. Maybe we have a short round of introduction. Femi, would you like to start?
Speaker 2: Yes, my name is Oba Femi Jegede, I am from Nigeria. I am one of the fellows of the African Multiple Cluster in tandem with Doctor Judith Bachmann.
Speaker 3: Hello, I'm Judith Bachmann and I am originally from the University of Heidelberg and I am here in sort of a tandem fellowship with Doctor Oba Femi Jegede from the University of Ibadan, Nigeria. And yeah, we're very happy to be here with our host Eva Spies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you very much for coming. And yeah, I'm Eva Spies, I am professor for the study of religion here at the University of Bayreuth and I am also spokesperson of the research section Moralities where you are guests and where your project is somehow involved in that research section. So maybe you start a little bit the discussion, I think, to introduce yourself a little bit and what you're doing and then I'll come in later.
Speaker 2: Yes, I am schooled in this field of traditional African religion and medicine and you know, that has stimulated my interest in the aspect of morality or ethics because my research here borders squarely on the transnationalization of a specific religious practice in the western part of Nigeria, Yoruba land. We call it Ifa divination system. It's an age-long ancient oral tradition in western part of Nigeria and that is spreading all over the world. And so there's a kind of transnationalization. And within this transnational translocation or territorialization is a very strong ethical or moral issue. And this ethical issue is so crucial, very central to the whole of the process of location and relocation of these practices outside the root that is in the Americas, particularly the American diaspora.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, maybe I can add to this. So we are researching Ifa divination and the way I think we've sort of envisioned our project, you will just correct me here, is that Professor, you know, Doctor Jegede will do ethnographic research and I'll do like a historical take on Ifa. And you've just mentioned that Ifa is practiced all over the world and this is also sort of a paradox, isn't it? Because like you said, it's an ancient, age-old Yoruba practice, indigenous knowledge system, you know, indigenous religion. But then how is it possible that even non-Yoruba people practice it across the world? And this is a paradox that I want to take a look at more deeply because I'm looking at how the possibility came about, you know, that really this deterritorialization, you know, this sort of going across borders, you know, was made possible in the first place. Yeah, so maybe Prof, you know, what I would be interested as well and maybe, you know, Eva Spies, you would be interested, is how did you get interested in Ifa, you know, like how did you get into it?
Speaker 2: Yes, by my training, I'm a seminarian or theologian. I went to seminary and I taught in seminary for twelve years. But after my interest in culture and development is just to enable scholarship to situate Africa in this search for global development. Africa has been sidelined somehow as far as discourse.
Speaker 1: Oh, our development is concerned. And I asked myself, how do I go about this? So let me study something that is related to Africa, peculiar to Africa. African knowing system, African scientific tradition, and an aspect of it that is so profound, but not really known, profound all over, is the Ifa-Ora tradition. So I did my PhD in Ifa. I was initiated into Ifa court. And over time, I became an Ifa practitioner, almost practically delinking from my original seminary exposure. And my exposure to Ifa has been so profoundly influential. It has taken over almost every other area of my life. And probably because there is a genetic connection. Probably because where my original family had been doing this thing, and I deviated from it, and the same energy that connected it with my family is bringing me back to it. And so it started out of this intellectual activism wanting to locate Africa in its search for knowledge and development. And that's what pushed me into studying Ifa.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And this is also how we met, isn't it?
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just wondered, yeah. So that's a really interesting overlap or interface between being practitioner and researcher. And I wondered, where is your connection to each other?
Speaker 3: Actually, the connection came when I, so I did for my PhD, I did a study on witchcraft among the Yoruba Christians, Muslims and traditional practitioners. And I did field research in Ibadan and had some conversations with colleagues at the University of Ibadan. And actually I was affiliated with Department of Religious Studies. And you had done your PhD in Religious Studies, but you had left the department by then. So it was actually by, well, you know how field research works, you know, somebody knows somebody that knows somebody. So I vividly remember we came out of Kenneth Dike, you know, I've done some looking at sort of journals that were in Kenneth Dike Humanities, big humanities library at the University of Nigeria, University of Ibadan. And we came out and one of my colleagues suggested, let's go to Dr. Jegede. He knows a lot about traditional healing. Because there were some questions that popped up during my research that I really felt I need to discuss or need to get a bit more background on it. So we directly went to his office basically. And he was there and then we had sort of a small conversation interview. I think I got your book, right, on traditional shrines and oath taking. And really helped a lot for my research. So we kept in touch. And then this opportunity came up. And I really always wanted to look at Ifa more closely. Because during my research, it was always affirmed that Ifa was sort of the core of Ifa, you know, traditional religious system. And in order to understand it, you had to know Ifa. And yet the history, there was basically no history of Ifa, you know. So until now there is no, though it's, you know, there is that story that it's sort of ancient and there are all those projects that take sort of or look into the Ifa corpus, you know, the verses that are learned by the practitioners, you know. But it's never looked at what has been made of it, you know, the sort of making of Ifa during the sort of nineteenth and twentieth century especially. So that's where my interest came from. And you know very much like, I guess like your take on it is the way you're sort of critical, you know, and trying to address sort of African problems. I'm actually more looking at Europe, you know, and the way sort of European history is self sufficient or it's painted as being self sufficient, you know. And like for example, I studied theology very much like you, you know. And as a student or even as a pupil in school, you know, I never heard of Africa, you know, only in sort of very stereotypical kind of way, you know. So I always, or when I then got to know African students, you know, I went to England and then met some Nigerian students. And then I got to know sort of Nigerian religions more deeply, you know. I always felt that why is it that...
Speaker 1: Nobody knows, you know, in Europe and why are the—is the even if you look at colonialism and the sort of globalization process that also affects Europe, it's never talked about what sort of effects uh you know the colonization and missionary enterprises and then sort of the talking back of of African uh of Africans, you know, in that process has affected Europe in in that take as well, you know. So I'm looking at sort of um the global entanglements of Ifa and how that has affected uh your European uh sort of knowledge production as well.
Speaker 2: Sorry for for cutting in, but but I think before maybe that's that's really we're right into into your project, into your tandem project. But maybe for the listeners it would be good to say a little bit more about what actually is Ifa. I know this is what your project is about, so it's not so easy to to say it in some sentences, but maybe you can give us an idea and you also talked about Nigerian religions now, so maybe you can say a little bit more about the context and the overall setting and then before we go into details of your project.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Ifa is a compendium of Yoruba oral tradition that attempts to, you know, human mind is forced to always ask questions concerning almost every issue. Issue of origin, evolution, you know, issue of death, sickness, no health, all these kind of issues, there are many questions. So the tradition of a people that attempts answer to all these questions is what you call Ifa, which means compendium. What Ifa tell him is bringing together everything, bringing everything into one space to enable access so that when you are asking question, you quickly go to that book and get answer to the questions. But you know, it is the oral tradition of the people. So the progenitor is the person we call Orunmila. So he came from heaven with this bag, you know, it was a bag or a pot handed over to him when he was coming from heaven and brought it down and taught people over years. So those who learned it also taught others and the knowledge continued to grow from generation to generation. So Ifa is almost everything to to to the Yoruba man. Ifa is a global phenomenon though a locally rooted, you know, practice that has a global outlook. And interestingly, you know, the progenitor according to the tradition, you know, traveled to Europe, you know, when you know when there was so much problem, you know, it was said that there were so many problems in the Western part of the world. And this owner, this progenitor came from Yorubaland to come and rescue Europeans from turmoil and there was wailing everywhere. And he was at the seashore. As he sat there, they just saw this this bizarre-looking man. So they did their divination. That is a true, you know, asking questions, getting answers. And the Ifa that came out was what you call Oturupoluguda, Oturupogede. That is a kind of Ifa that talks about how how a local tradition became a global tradition eventually. It started in the ancient, in the in the what you call igbiji, very old ancient time. And you know, Ifa asked them to bring all kinds of things, you know, bring pigeon, two hundred pigeons, two hundred goats, two hundred sheep, two hundred of everything. And the Yoruba people, the Europeans, they had complex problems and the problems were solved. They rushed and got all that Ifa asked for. And Ifa used it to do a kind of ritual to the space. And before we knew it, the life of the Yoruba people started to get better. And they gave them cream. And the cream they used to rub their body, bleach the body. And the one they used for their hair, comb the hair. And the life of the Yoruba started to get...
Speaker 1: better. And they became very successful, very happy. And uh, and uh, you know, the the the African man who got because Ifa was rejected in Africa, he rushed to Europe. And when he got to Europe, he changed the life of the European people. And then so so now I think so you can say the globalization itself did not start now even before before the slave trade that took people to Brazil, to America. No, it started even long before there. Because actually, when we ask in in Ifa tradition, who was the first person to enter ship or train or plane to to Europe? You say it was Ifa Taluwa kowokode yobo or Oromila kowokode yobo, the first person that took maybe whatever to enter Europe, he was the first person. So you see, and that's quite quite interesting. That is to say that the transnationalization issue didn't start now. It has been there from the very beginning. So maybe Ifa may be Yoruba tradition at one point may also be a tradition of of European of the European people or the tradition of the West. So therefore a global tradition.
Speaker 2: No, I I think there there are two aspects to Ifa, isn't it? There is that practical everyday life where people encounter a problem, you know, like maybe they they are anxious to pass a school exam, you know, or they...
Speaker 1: Get married or they want to get their land or they want to start a business or there is sickness or they are looking for children. The Babalawo is obviously there. These are also questions that there are professionals who attempt answers to these questions. So what's the question of philosophy? How did the world come into being? How did death come into human being? How did we start having sickness? What really was the source of prosperity, governance, technology, medicine, philosophy, religion? You know, everything is embedded in in this Ifa tradition. Which means it is answers. Is it the answer to all or many many questions that human mind keep asking?
Speaker 2: So that's very interesting because I think in the literature it's very much, you know, focused on divination practice, but it's so much more, as you said, it's like a compendium. But you wanted to...
Speaker 3: No, no, I think I think this is exactly what I wanted to point out. You know, there's that practical everyday life issue which is, um, well in my study I looked more at sort of the healing or medical practice aspect, you know, healing in the broad sense, you know, because addressing sort of problems with school exams as well as sort of illnesses, you know. Um, but I also feel that, um, for for quite a long time and I'm I'm tracing this back to the nineteenth century, um, uh Ifa has been has been compared to being much more or has been made much more than that, you know, as sort of philosophical endeavor, you know, akin to like it was compared very early on to uh like astrology, you know, to um uh to Kabbalah, you know, esoteric uh esoteric movements in the quote unquote west, you know. But um, so in in this sense, and it got even stronger after after independence, Nigerian independence, that people really made sort of wrote down all of these Ifa verses which then uh like I am thinking they're almost treated uh like the Bible nowadays, you know, like people going back and then looking at how the translations were done and then there's sort of a feminist critique which says, you know, oh you can't translate it like this, this is sort of like a male um uh sort of bias. But um yeah, so it really um became uh involved in discussions about much more than just sort of the practical pragmatist kind of everyday life thing. But I think uh I'm I'm wondering, what do you think? Do you think the people that um come for sort of because of school exam or something, do they know about all those things, you know, the the philosophical kind of aspect of Ifa?
Speaker 1: Yes, philosophical, you know, from a people's epistemological standpoint, it may not be called philosophy, but they may call it wisdom or knowledge. That that's how they receive it. But philosophy, because that word philosophy in in in the root of it means wisdom. In Yoruba lexicon, oban means wisdom. And so Oromila, the progenitor, one of the appellations is that he is Afikarekele funu sobon.
Speaker 1: That is somebody who from childhood, you know, is built with wisdom. Everything in him is about wisdom. And then, and then the ability to solve problems—that's what we call wisdom in this context—the ability to proffer solutions to problems, especially complicated problems. And in fact, the ability to give answers to questions. You know, the issue of human evolution, as argued by Western biology, anatomy, also exists in Ifa. So Ifa has its own explanation. How—if Ifa has an explanation about how America emerged, for example, how Europe emerged—is that Ifa has explanations about practically everything. And also, it has explanation about every individual, including you, me. And I explain, if you go to Ifa today and you ask any question, Ifa will trace your story. I mean, it means already has a record of what your story is. It will tell you where you're coming from, what you want to do, and it will tell you don't do it, do it. It will guide you. So Ifa is everything to the Yoruba person. It's everything.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting. It seems to be an interesting—so it's a Yoruba compendium of knowledge and wisdom, but also something like a global approach to—
Speaker 1: Sometimes—I think Yorubas should not claim ownership of this thing. Over time, Yoruba rootedness in Ifa will no longer be there because getting stronger elsewhere—in Cuba, in Brazil—it's getting very, very strong. And even in America, in New York, for example, in Miami, it's getting strong. In fact, sometimes Babalawos in Cuba are known to be more knowledgeable than many Babalawos in Yorubaland. So I think these claims—it is possible for Cubans to say it's also their own. In fact, I know work on Indonesia—we are Ifa traced even though in Indonesia. So anybody can claim to be the owner of Ifa at this time around because of the emerging transnationalization. I mean, this kind of globalization of the phenomenon is making it difficult for the Yoruba to claim ownership. No, I don't think it will be possible after a while.
Speaker 2: Maybe we can also go a little bit now into the work you do together because when I read your application for the fellowship, I really loved this idea that you come together and work together on this. But I also had the impression from very different perspectives. So you're a senior scholar from Nigeria, a practitioner—you just recently published your PhD dissertation, have a background in German academic life. So I wonder how your different perspectives also you have on Ifa come together and how do you work together?
Speaker 1: Yes, you know, she's a theologian. When we discuss, I see so much of history in her. And I'm not a professional historian. I'm a practitioner. So she has the theory, I have the practice. So when the theory and the practice are matched together, we form holistic knowledge, total knowledge. By my own experience, I am not just a scholar in Ifa. I have participated in initiation ceremonies of many people all over—from many parts of the world—and I'm sure she has not had such experiences. But sharing that with her, we enrich our knowledge. I have a glimpse understanding of the trajectory, you know, how slave trade has influenced the transnationality of Ifa in the Americas, for example, in South America. Yes, I read a little about it. But she has a more profound analytical understanding. And I think that's where the merging comes into being.
Speaker 1: I think this is a wonderful opportunity to work together even with these different views on the subject. But let's be honest, it's also a challenge for us both. Like ever since we've been here, we've had many discussions. We've really, well, we've, you know, had very confrontative ideas as well, you know, not only like, you know, like, of course, that's the aim sort of to have to really come together. But I also think that we, it shouldn't, this coming together shouldn't be so that we forget our different, like, or that one rules over the other, you know, this sort of thing. So I think it's very important to still allow for spaces where we disagree, you know, and disagree a lot. And so I think this is due because we have very different audiences, very different backgrounds and minds, you know, and probably also different trajectories, you know, like, as you mentioned, I'm at the probably beginning or hopefully beginning of my academic career, you know, whereas you are far more advanced, you know, have a secure position already in University of Ibadan. So I guess what we want with this project is very different, you know, like, and, but I think we come together as being very critical in our own spaces, you know. Like I perceive you as being very critical towards sort of the hegemony of Christianity and Islam in public discourse in Nigeria, you know, and I think this is a very interesting, you know, position to be in and a very challenging position to be in for you, you know. So, and for me, I am sort of critical of sort of the hegemony of Europe being sort of the secular, this sort of advanced position in the world, you know, where everything good came from us, you know, science and knowledge and all those things. So I think there needs to be a rewriting not only of African history but by extension also of European history, you know, and this is why I follow these global entanglements, you know, because then you can also see that European history needs to include, you know, the sort of the African part of it, you know, and where sort of Africans joined global conversations on, let's say, science, let's say philosophy and religion, you know. And yeah, that's what I want to do, you know, and, but it's very, I guess it's a very difficult, a different approach to, you know, the sort of understanding the Yoruba indigenous knowledge from inside, you know, I cannot do that, you know, but I think coming together, this is a really great opportunity to do this.
Speaker 2: Yes, interestingly, the agenda is not different, their approaches. Because she is trying to, you know, locate Africa in global discourse. And the same thing that I am trying to do. Not honestly, that exactly was the stimulating factor. The need to say that in the global search for development, Africa has something to offer. That this is a space that cannot be fenced off of the discourse. And, you know, I see Ifá as a very interesting springboard. That by the time people are exposed to Ifá, it will go a long way to know that there is already an existing knowledge system among a people. And then you can now see how this knowledge system can be harnessed. You know, we say Ifá is, you know, is a phenomenon that gives answers to many, many questions. So it doesn't have to be Yoruba people that are asking the questions. Anybody anywhere in the world can ask question. And when they ask the question, Ifá has the answer. And so, the understanding of Ifá, research into Ifá will help to locate Africa properly. That's actually the reason why I am a kind of activist. I am not just a scholar. Sometimes I don't want to see myself as a scholar. I want to see myself as an activist, somebody who wants to locate his own people properly within the world.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I like very much how you just explained that it's not only looking at Africa in a different way, but also looking at the global in a different way through African practices, history and so on. So for me, it's also questioning, of course, this world religions paradigm, for example, and all this question what is world religion. And I hear some somehow also a critique of Christianity or Christian theology being still very Eurocentric in a way. But I'd also be interested, so you're both now in the research section Morality, and I wonder where you see connections. Maybe just to explain a little bit to the listener. So when we talk about moralities, we are not talking so much about codes of conduct or a list of norms and values or moralities as a given, but when we think about moralities, we rather think about it in a very processual dynamic way in the way of doing ethics. Means that moral concerns, moral claims, ideas are somehow also produced or a result of interaction, of conversations. And I wonder where you see your project maybe in this discussion. You already mentioned in the beginning the importance of moralities.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. See, the idea of doing ethics itself is more profoundly typified in Africa. For example, even in the Ifa tradition itself, from initiation, it's all about doing ethics. You know, the idea, the word ethics or morality is a very alien or obscure English word. Like the Yoruba, we use the word taboo in English which will mean ewo, double e w o, which means do not enter. Do not enter. It means the world is a big space where we are telling things, if you do it this way, it will affect the whole world. So these things you must not do, that if you do it, the world can crash. Things you must do, that if you do it, the world can be stable. So it's about the stability of the earth, of the world, not about individual. And so the whole process of engaging in Ifa itself is a ritual ethical process. That is, certain instructions are given. We have certain carefulness and necessary. It's not about dos or don'ts. It's about total existence. Sometimes I love to explain in this way because we use the word iwa. The word i plus i fen w a means existence, iwa. By implication, the world is a delicate phenomenon. Is a volatile reality. How can the world be sustained so that the world will not crash, so that it will not break? One good way is doing ethics. So that by the time we are all doing ethics, then we can sustain our world. So if you pour a small drop of water on the floor, though it has dropped on a small space, it has affected the whole earth. As an African man would think. It is the whole earth that has been affected, even though it's a drop of water on a small space. So that is clearly doing ethics.
Speaker 1: But it's also doing ethics in the regard that it's very processual, isn't it? Because the way that you learn, that you're brought up into these, like you said, taboo, you know, because children or anybody that comes into this thinking, you know, doesn't know like all of it, just this, you know. For example, I think you mentioned Ifa initiation, you know, like you wouldn't know what to do, but you're guided through the process by people saying, no, you can't do this, no, you can't do that, you know. So I think in this way there's also that processual sort of evolving kind of, yeah, the practices that matter here, isn't it? Like in the way that you're guided through this system. No, I really like the looking at...
Speaker 1: uh the doing instead of just the outcome of it, you know. Um, uh so yeah, I'm, but I'm also a bit critical because I'm like, um why, like, I I am I am or maybe you can correct this view, you know. Does this also then exclude the compendium, you know. Because I am also thinking that the ethics, you know, as a sort of outcome, you know, they are also one part of the doing, isn't it. Because there like, if you have sort of like, um you know, in theology we we we then read those handbooks of ethics, you know. But that's also part of the doing, isn't it. Because they will add then to people's uh view on ethics and produce uh also other results, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Ethics is not just about legal codes or even moral codes. I'll give an example. Like me, in my own Ifa, I should not eat guinea fowl egg. That does not affect anybody. That's me. And what is the problem of eating guinea fowl egg. You can't take me to any court of law. No principal, no teacher can query me for eating. But eating guinea fowl egg is a capital offense for me. Even though for me it's a capital offense, if I eat guinea fowl egg, it will affect me. I tell you, it will affect her. It will affect you. It will affect everybody. How. Because eating guinea fowl egg will bring, when I ate it, I ate guinea fowl egg in two thousand and thirteen. And when I finished eating guinea fowl egg after about maybe two three months, my head swelled up bigger than football. Two three four football. Yes. Just because I ate guinea fowl egg. And if, almost like a pump tube that may likely break. That's the whole of this head. Now, I was the one that had pain, but I tell you, my wife had pain. Is it. Because she was there, she had to be there for me to carry me up and down. My children were crying, maybe their father might die. My students were in trouble. My Ph.D. students were in big trouble. My mother was crying. Can you say I was the one that ate guinea fowl egg. But it has affected everybody. And you know, it set me back even professionally. It caused a lot of, you know, my students who were supposed to finish their Ph.D. did not finish in time. So yet I was the one that ate guinea fowl egg. That's why, you know, keeping or doing ethics is not just a professional responsibility. It is a collective responsibility of every individual, everybody. Because what affects me affects others. And that is about, you know, collective concern for the existence or sustenance of this very volatile world we find ourselves.
Speaker 1: And and I also think that, you know, this focus on process and on dynamics does not mean that at certain points there are kind of structures or, um, I mean, for for me it's more the interest, the work you put into creating these fixations or structures. And so so it does not, I I think it's not an either-or, either there is dynamics or something fixed. And but to to it's just to have another perspective on what is going on.
Speaker 1: Um so, um I think, um we come to the end slowly, but maybe you can give for for the listeners a short outlook. What what are your next steps here. Uh what are you trying to do in the next weeks.
Speaker 2: Um no, what, um well, uh for for me individually is uh you know studying more closely the sources that I've laid out to study. Um uh I think we you know engage in more discussions together. Um we are also trying to you know look at other academic activities that we start we could start here at at the University of Bayreuth. Um and uh maybe have a workshop about topics that interest us. But you know we're still exploring all those options. Um but I think at the end definitely we we want to publish something together about this, um about this project, you know. And I am yeah really looking forward to it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, great. Interestingly, I came with a book I needed, I didn't complete in Nigeria. So now I'm putting finishing touches to it. So in fact I am so happy that I have enough time to sit down, you know, walk it properly. Then um just when I saw the call for paper on...
Speaker 1: On this decolonising memory. And that really intrigued me. And I'm developing a paper on it now. And I'm also looking at it from the Efá system. This apprenticeship system. And this memory and apprentice system in Efá traditions, knowledge system. Actually, it's purely an oral tradition. Though it's being written now, there is a big issue. In fact, among professionals, they say it should be left only at the level of orality. That to script it as a book is to water it down, is to reduce it to nothing. So for now, it is still an oral tradition. As big as the compendium is, it is compelling on you to have all within your head. You don't have to write anything down. So that's a very interesting memory knowledge system. So I am doing that. I'm also, we are working together on this workshop. And to me it's going to be monumental. It's going to be very, very remarkable. Because what we are looking at is to me very interesting. And it's very properly squashed into the usual speciality. Sincerely speaking, African spatial thinking or spatial consciousness is entirely different from the Western spatial thinking. And this spatial thinking influences their ways of life. Even their agenda, their thinking patterns. And European spatial thinking also does the same thing. But incidentally, Europe thinks Africa is underdeveloped, this is that. Just because of the space they find themselves. So we are looking at this problem of space negotiation. We hope to have a very, very formidable workshop.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, thank you for also bringing in this the idea of space and spatiality as the angle we are working here on. And so also your tandem is in this annual theme of spatialities located. Thank you for mentioning this now. But I think we already have to close here. And thank you so much for joining. And I learned a lot and I am very, very happy you are here as a tandem. And I'm looking very much forward to further discussions and all the things you're doing here. So thanks for joining.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much for having us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you.
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