Dr. Wandia Njoya in Conversation with Prof. Dr. Carlos Kölbl
Media records
Abstract
- Abstract
- In this latest episode of the Cluster Conversations Cluster fellow Dr. Wandia Njoya talks with Prof. Dr. Carlos Kölbl about her research project in which she researches new ways of conceiving and engaging with experiences of education in Kenya and other comparable contexts.
People & roles
Origins & context
- Title
- Dr. Wandia Njoya in Conversation with Prof. Dr. Carlos Kölbl
- Language
- English
- Podcast series
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Cluster Conversations
- Date
- May 12, 2023
Rights & access
- Extent
- 48 minutes, 44 seconds
Identifiers & sources
Further details
- Episode number
- 6
Full text
- Transcript
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[music]
Speaker 1: Cluster conversations, a podcast by Africa Multiple.
Speaker 1: Okay, my name is Carlos Köbel. I am professor of psychology here at the University of Bayreuth and I'm sitting here with Wanda Nyoya who studied French at the Penn State University, is currently working in Nairobi, Kenya, has combined research with activism and is currently working here during her fellowship at the cluster. She is working among other things on a collected volume with Liz Cooper and Edmunda Alba on the education alibi. And maybe you could add a bit to those few points on your biography. I'm sure you have much more to say about that and then we can talk about your current research.
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you for having me. I have become a public voice and an activist on matters of education because when I finished my studies and I returned home, I expected this glorious experience of teaching students and then I discovered that the system has major issues to do with the philosophy of teaching, the philosophy of education and then of course other political issues like the resources allocated. And then I also, because Kenyans complain a lot about their education system, I wanted to explain to them why the education system is the way it is. And as I started talking in the public about education, I found that there were other social issues coming into the conversation which also needed to be dealt with. So all that is what has brought me here to Bayreuth to kind of reflect on those issues and then sort of ask how can we help the public to understand so that they we can politically make better decisions about our education.
Speaker 1: So if I may sum up, you're not an educationalist by training and you're not an anthropologist by training, but you have become besides of your expertise in French, you have become an educationalist and anthropologist from inside, so to speak.
Speaker 2: Yes, from experience. Yes.
Speaker 1: What leads us also to this project of writing a sort of autoethnography?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Maybe you can comment a bit on that. I think you also you have already started and maybe you can add up on that.
Speaker 2: Okay. What I noticed as I was confronting some of the issues I was seeing in the classroom and in Kenyan public life, what I noticed was that we talk a lot at the macro level. We talk about the policies, the implementation, the resources, but at the level of the policymakers and the politicians and the institutions. But all those things when they come to the lived experience of teachers and students and parents in the classroom, it's a totally different story altogether. And there hasn't been much record about the lived experience of the education system. So that was where I connected with Edmunda and Liz because they are also looking at that, about what does school mean in the day-to-day life of Africans? What does school actually mean? So my project is to talk about my experience as an educator, but also as a product of that education system. Because I went through it being believing that I was going to get something out of the system and then when I finally reached the peak, I get back into the system and I discover it was like I was living in a different world altogether. What we were being told is different from the reality, the lived experience. So that's why...
Speaker 1: I am choosing to look at education from my own experience, not just as a professional but as a person. Because I'm also going to talk about the anxieties that I face as a teacher, about my own social life and my health also, because they have been affected by my experience. So just to bring the totality of that experience into the story of Kenya's education, that's what my project is about.
Speaker 2: Mhm. So you mentioned two pathways, so to speak, in writing this autoethnography. One from from the perspective of you being a teacher at university doing teaching at university and the other as a product of the Kenyan educational system. Could you tell us a bit more about how these pathways intermingle or what the differences are where the points of convergence are? That would be one thing which I think would be quite interesting. And the other thing is, as a psychologist, I am always interested in methods. And how would you describe your methodological, methodic approach in writing this autoethnography?
Speaker 1: Okay. It's interesting you mention being a psychologist because I am trying to use quite a bit of psychology although I am not an expert. One of the things, as I started digging into the processes, the microprocesses of education, there is a huge psychological impact of education on our lives. From my experience, it's a huge sense of guilt when you don't do what the system says should be done, but at the same time it doesn't allow you to do those things. So you're left with this frustration and guilt. Frustration at not being able to do what you're supposed to do and guilt for not doing it. So I want to look at the internal, I am going to be describing my internal processes of how I felt about certain things and but also go into why I felt that way. Looking at, for example, I am a Protestant and Protestants, the Protestant religion has a lot about guilt and individual enterprise and you know all the Weberian you know discussion on Protestants. So these are, because I come from a very strong Christian background, there is also that element. So I will look at that. I am also going to look at discourse. You know, what do we do with words? So for example, one thing that happens within the education system is that we are policed through language. So we are not told not to think, but there are certain things we do with words that prevent people from thinking. So, for example, if I ask an uncomfortable question as a student, the teacher will say, you're being rude, you're not polite, you're not respecting your elders. That's against African tradition. So there is a whole set of rhetorical practices that are embedded in the education system that eventually produce this person who becomes afraid, ashamed and scared to think. And when they start asking questions, they don't know what to do when those questions are not answered. So there is that aspect, the psychological aspect that I want to talk about. And then also the historical institutional one. What are the institutional and political issues that are producing this kind of atmosphere in the school system? And then of course I'll talk a lot about violence. So the reason why I am approaching it that way is because when I started asking the questions, why is the system like this? Then I started noticing, I am being silenced, but not with a stick, it's with words. I am being made to feel guilty for asking questions. I am being told what you're asking has no importance in our development as a country. I mean, there are so many rhetorical practices. And then the effect of that is guilt, shame.
Speaker 1: confusion, disempowerment. So that's all. So I want to bring all those things because I think it's important for us to understand the micro processes of education. We've been talking about the big things, the policies, the institutions, the, you know, Kenyans will talk about this government report, the other government report, the other one. But they don't talk about what does it actually feel like to be in the classroom. Because that is where the real impact of our education system is. It's not just simply in the, in the reports. It's in our lives. What does it do to us? And just to finish up, somebody, you know, in my, in the course of my writing about this on social media, people have reached out to me and said, I still have nightmares about a particular episode in class. Someone told me whenever he sees digits on a, and he he's an accountant, but whenever he sees digits, which is all the time, he recalls the violence that was meted out on him when he was learning mathematics. So we have all these traumas that we are carrying and we've not named them because the school is supposed to have given us a ticket to success. But we are hurting inside. So I'm going to combine both the psychological itinerary of my life with the historical one. So it's, yeah, it would be interweaving both. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes perfect sense. As to the collected volume you're working with, Lisette and Mute, it's called Education Alibi. And of course I have heard you talking about this title and why you used this title. But maybe you could say about this word alibi something. Why alibi? Why can education be an alibi and what is your intention in addressing education as an alibi? What do you think are the advantages of such an addressing? What is it you want to get out of it and what is it that you in fact get out of it doing it the way you do?
Speaker 1: The problem with education has been that it's been difficult to pinpoint agendas. You know, for example, people will say Africans will say this education system is meant to disempower us and make us more vulnerable to exploitation. But that's not what the policies say. The policies have these grand themes about, oh, if we educate, we'll educate for development, we'll have a power, an empowered individual. But that's not what it's producing. So if you try to to say, you people in the government are insincere, they're going to say, no, we did these policies with good faith. The fact that they are not, it's not producing what you want is something else, but we have done the the policies are there. That's what they'll tell you. So what we decided to do instead of imputing a direct bad motivation on education as an institution is to say we have some suspicions. We we are suspicious. We have some questions. We wonder why education is turning out the way it is. But we don't have concrete evidence. But we feel from the lived experience and the results we are seeing, we have a legitimate standing to ask, what is education really for? And then in the volume we everybody who all the contributors are presenting their evidence. They are saying, we are talking about education for all, but not all Africans are going to school. We are talking about education for empowerment, but people leave the system feeling extremely disempowered. We are talking about national unity like in Kenya. That's what we talk about. But that's not the product. So we are just leaving it for the readers to say then, you know, what is education for? We've presented our case and we've presented our our our our suspicions. But now we want the readers to be the jury and to say, is education guilty as charged or is the culprit somebody else? So that's why we are calling it an alibi.
Speaker 2: So you are playing with this metaphor and using as you did, words which are which are connotated with this metaphors, suspicion, evidence, presenting the case, the jury. Is there guilt? Is there no guilt? Okay, I see.
Speaker 1: which uh I suppose shall end in a much more differentiated view on education, neither uh make it making it simplistic guilty or not guilty, but with all the ambivalences it has.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay. If I may return to the autoethnography, I suppose and you also said that at least implicitly, that such a first-person account as you are doing it is nothing which is widespread. But are there nevertheless, are there perhaps other colleagues of you in Kenya or yeah in Kenya who are trying to do such first-person accounts either from an autoethnographical perspective or also from a in a broad sense of the word qualitative qualitative perspective, not only relying on one's own first-person experience, but collecting first-person experiences of others and trying to reconstruct them in a biographical way and interweaving them with historical things just as you do. Are there other parallel approaches, projects you can communicate with?
Speaker 2: You know, the problem of the academy and and this is one of the things I also found for Kenya is that we are supposed to build up on what others have done. So the colonial education project, the way it was started by the colonial governments is that it depended on government-commissioned reports. So the government-commissioned reports are very detached and impersonal and they are very policy-driven. So that culture, that intellectual culture has been imported into Kenyan education research. You find that a lot of especially the education experts, they are driven by policy and the technical side of education. And even when they interview children and teachers, which by the way I was surprised is not very common except through questionnaires asking, do you like this, do you like this, and then people say yes, no, and then you tabulate the data. But to actually go into people's lived experiences and ask them to give an account of how they're experiencing the education system, those studies are rare. So part of and so actually when I noticed this, I was saying that's why when we are trying to talk about policy, the policymakers and the academics can't hear us because they've been so used to this diet of technocratic, policy-driven education research. So we are trying to break that and I think Liz and another colleague, Hilda Oburu, have started that kind of work of actually asking children, how do you process the decisions you make? What are the things you saw and what led you to make the decision and how did you act upon it? Those studies are still not enough. We need more of them so that we can start to understand how does it feel like to be human in these systems. So part of why we came together and what we are hoping even after when I return home is to continue this conversation and talk about, ask scholars, how can we talk more about the actual lived experiences of people in the education system, not just asking opinions and tabulating them and doing a very quantitative kind of study, but how can we actually hear what people are saying and take their agency seriously. So those are the questions that it's a methodological question that we are now trying to push for in education thinking and education research.
Speaker 1: Yeah, perfect.
Speaker 1: Since you're also working as an activist or also define yourself on the one hand as a researcher but also as an activist, I would have two questions as to that because I think that could be interesting. How would you see the relationship between you being a researcher on the one hand and being an activist on the other hand? Or is the whole question posed wrong from the start because these are not two roles which can be divided? How would you see that, that relationship? That would be one thing. And the other would be how would you judge your or how would you evaluate your impact on policy, on educational policy?
Speaker 2: I think education is fundamentally a political project. It's political because it affects the decisions we make together, what we tell our young people about their past so that it influences their future. So, and how we educate is decided by all of us together. That's what makes it political. And that's why I felt that besides having a conversation with people within the academy, which was very difficult anyway, I need to have a conversation with Kenyans just to tell them, this is what is happening in the education system. These are the political choices we need to make as a country about what kind of education we want and what we want it for and why we want to educate in the first place. Those are political conversations. So in that sense, my scholarship and my political activism come together because I'm saying, with my research, I'm saying these are the issues, but with my activism, I'm saying we Kenyans have to make a decision. So they come together. That's how they come together. And what is my impact? I'm not sure. I think I'm going to be lazy here and say history will judge me. But I think the first key thing I want is for Kenyans to discuss education because there's a sense in which they leave it to the experts. And the political discourse, that's what it tells them. Sometimes you will hear officials saying, what are you asking? Why are you asking these questions? We are experts. They want it left there. And what I'm saying to Kenyans is that, no, if you don't understand, ask. Ask questions. If something doesn't work for you in the education system, it's your right to ask, what are you doing? You need to also understand because this is a project that involves all of us. So in that sense, I think, I don't know whether Kenyans are hearing me. They say they do. Sometimes I get messages or people will tell me, now I get what you're saying or I'm listening keenly to what you're saying. Or some even say, today I did this because I heard you talking about this a few years ago and I now get what you're saying and I also stood up and said something. So to me, that's my role. I hope that my achievement is to change the conversation about the political decisions we make about education. That has to be all of us. It has to be Kenyans who decide. But for me, my key interest is to change the conversation, to say that we must all be involved in education and we must all care because it's our children and it's the universe that is affected by how we teach our children. So we must all be involved.
Speaker 1: So if I may paraphrase it and you correct me if it's wrong, your aim is not so much to change this law or that law, to change this concrete policy or that one, but to create consciousness in the Kenyan public, to inform Kenyan public, to give hints as to where discussions may be important and fruitful and things like that. So enlightenment in a way.
Speaker 1: Yes, because, and that I learned as I went along. It's not something I consciously decided. Because what happened was when I started looking into the policies, I started realizing, whoa, how did this come up? What were we thinking? Who was doing it, you know? And then I realized there's no point of me talking about policy anymore. I used—I started talking about policy, but I reached a point where I said even the policy conversation is not getting us anywhere. The real issue is that Kenyans are detached and from the education conversation and they need to get back into that conversation and drive it themselves. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And what would you think are the key issues in the Kenyan educational system at the moment? Or what can you tell us as persons who are not acquainted with the educational system in Kenya about the key topics, the really important things, issues at the moment which you think should be discussed more in depth in the Kenyan public and which you are trying to contribute with your activism and with your research? And by the way, is your activism could that also be framed as a sort of applied research? Would you say that that is a correct notion?
Speaker 1: Yes, it is applied because it's interesting that many of the questions I'm starting to ask, that I'm asking now, it's the Kenyan public that made me start asking them. It's my interactions with the public. When I say something and they don't understand, then I have to explain where this came from. And then the questions they ask me or even sometimes the insults, they make me think, hey, you know, something there. So in a sense, it's not even so much applied, it's an interaction between my research and my activism. It's a lot of the questions I'm asking today have been informed by what Kenyans have asked me. So I find that to me it's a beautiful—it's a tapestry of what education should be. We should not be just people sitting in a building isolated from the rest of society. We should always be in conversation with society. So in that sense, my activism is part of my education. I mean, my research, it informs my research and then my research informs my activism. So it's a cycle. I would say the problems of Kenya—for me—the biggest problem is our philosophy of education. Education in Kenya when it started under colonialism was—it was an access to economic advancement in an economy that was very constricted for Africans. Africans had lost their land. And so they were trying to enter the new economy imposed by colonialism and the way they had to do it was through education. Unfortunately, that's still the problem. Because we have a very constricted economy in terms of what it allows Kenyans to do. And so when Kenyans go into the education system, when they go into the schools, even their possibilities are also constricted. And so we come out of the education system—which is what I discovered painfully through experience—we come out very limited in terms of what we can do in society. And the education system trains us to expect those limitations. I'm just one of the people who said, I am not listening to this. I have to—we have to break these barriers. So I would say philosophy is a big, big problem. We don't know what school is for and why we go to school. I think also on the philosophical level, we are not sure what humanity being human means. Our education system is pegged because it's pegged on development, meaning tangibles like infrastructure, money and employment. It doesn't accommodate the bigger questions that we have to ask as society. Does not equip us to understand the place of Kenya in the world, the place of human beings, how do we relate to one another.
Speaker 1: Those questions are not dealt with by by the system. Um, I think those are the two big ones because now when you start coming to resources, content of curriculum, all those are all tied to why are we educating. Um, I think as long as we don't deal with those, the problem of why and the economy we are in, it would be very difficult to solve all the other issues that come like inequalities are a big thing, but I think that's tied to to the lack of clarity, philosophical clarity about why do we educate and what for.
Speaker 2: Mhm. Yeah, you have also, I think, at least implicitly hinted at the role of of colonial, of the colonial system. Could you perhaps say something about decolonising education in Kenya since this is a major topic in many societies. What would you say is the case, is important for the Kenyan case?
Speaker 1: You know, Kenya, one of the biggest texts about decolonising came from Kenya. So we've been talking about decolonising for a long time, but it's not which is what I'm going to say, it's not in our lived experience. When I mean...
Speaker 2: More on a discourse level.
Speaker 1: It's more on a discourse level, but when you actually come to the classrooms there, when you go to the policy making bodies, there is no decoloniality happening. I mean, I think for me, my shock was when when we were getting this new education system, it was being justified with the racist policies of the nineteen twenties, which was that Africans have small brains that stop developing at teenage and so they cannot do literary conceptual education, they have to be trained to work with their hands. So we are still using that even today as an education policy. So one of the questions I am going to be asking in in my book is, why? We know that this is a racist idea. Why are we still repeating it in the twenty first century? And one of the answers I have is because of the institutional culture. You know, you can talk big out there, but institutionally, the dynamics in the institution are still very colonial and there is no language we have yet for pointing it up because of the actors, we like the lecturers and the teachers, we find it very hard to raise these questions because it has to do with your pay. You know, if you ask too many questions, you could get in trouble with your supervisor, the school might fire you. So there are those practical dynamics that interact with these bigger decoloniality questions. So for me, I agree with the decolonial project. For me, I am saying on the ground, it sounds it's a very different dynamic and it's more difficult to ask the kinds of questions we ask at a conceptual level than we actually are aware of. It's very difficult to ask those questions. Yeah.
Speaker 2: You have talked about limitations in the Kenyan educational system concerning, for example, and that was a major topic you mentioned in respect to the philosophy of education. Now you know the Kenyan system, but you also know the US American system. Yes. What about limitations of the US American educational system you have faced when studying at Penn State? To bring in a comparative perspective, so to speak.
Speaker 1: Actually, a lot of the issues that we face are American ones. For example, that idea of training Africans only for technical or vocational subjects. It came from the education that Booker T Washington was being supported to promote in the eighteen late eighteen hundreds in the United States.
Speaker 2: So saying the humanities is nothing which is really important. Yes. But we need technicians, lawyers, physicians and so on.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The second issue which I found, I mean, in retrospect, I didn't know this when I was in Penn State, but now that I am thinking is that there was a heavy concentration on the European enlightenment curriculum. So that meant we did not...
Speaker 1: really engage the socio-political issues of education within the United States. Of course, I'm sure the departments of education who are doing it, but we didn't do it, at least in my education. So, I think the issues are the same. And then when you look at the reforms that we are getting up to today, they are mainly produced from the United States with all their racial contradictions. So, for example, the new curriculum we got, one of the documents that was informing it was an experiment done in the Philadelphia schools. The school system is mainly for children from black communities and the challenges they face are the same, poverty, lack of investment in the public education system. So, I think it's an Anglo-American problem when I look at it, even when I look at what the British teachers are saying, the people who are raising questions about the education system in the UK, even Australia, there seems to be a particularly Anglo-American character to the issues that we are facing. So, it might not, people from the French system might not quite resonate with the expression of those problems. There's a way in which it's very Anglo-American. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay. I remember hearing you say at the conference on the Education Alibi that humanities, and you also mentioned it right now, that humanities do have a difficult standing in Kenya. Nevertheless, what would you say could be a positive role of humanities in Kenya, in comparison to all these things also propagated by, for example, the Anglo-American system, to just focus on technicians, lawyers, physicians. What would be the valuable, fruitful, positive contribution of the humanities in an ideal world, so to speak?
Speaker 1: The humanities is where we ask the simple question, what does it mean to be human in this environment we are in, in the world we are in. What does it mean to be a human being? So, you can look at it through how is that conversation had through music, how is it had through painting, how is it had through dance, how is it had through theology even, religion. All these areas is the human question. Who are we in the world we are in? That's what the humanities does. And that's why there is, there's a war against the humanities. And even when you look, even right now, the controversy in the United States, yeah, with the Florida governor fighting against African American education, it's still the same issue. You know, who are we? What does it mean to be human? Where are we coming from? Those are the questions that the humanities answers. And there's a very specific way in which the Anglo-American empire has always had a problem with the humanities. And that goes back to, in my view, I'm not sure, but my theory is that goes back to the days of the revolution, the fear of England that the ideas that were happening in continental Europe would come to England. So, they have to block ideas. And that's what Edmund Burke was saying. We don't need ideas, we just need traditions. And then that kind of idea went across the pond and it was also brought to the continent, to the British colonies like ours where...
Speaker 1: The goal actually for Kenya and Zimbabwe and South Africa was to make them white settler colonies. So whatever philosophies the British were living with, they brought them to Kenya. And that's a sense in which Kenya has to confront the colonial problem in a slightly unique way compared to other former colonies of Britain because the intention was for the settlers to stay. So the system we have was for the settlers. It wasn't for us. It was for the settlers. So the humanities has a very tortured history in the empire. And that's, I think, what we are also grappling with as Kenyans. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And do you perceive allies in Kenya for strengthening the role of humanities? Can you build alliances with colleagues or is it very, very difficult and every person works for his own and doesn't connect to others in order to improve the situation?
Speaker 1: I would say like the Africa Cluster Centre. It has been unique in that way. When Moi University, which is one of the participating universities, when they invited me, I was so thrilled. I was so thrilled because I was saying, oh, finally, I can go and talk about the things that matter to me. And we are having conversations that matter.
Speaker 2: So this is what we wanted to hear.
Speaker 1: Yes. We can have conversations that matter. And in fact, I think there was one conference where we were at where there was yet another scholar from Egypt, Dr. Damaris Pasitau, who said, I'm so happy to be here because finally we can talk about the things that matter to us. We've been talking to foreigners, but we are not having the conversations here. So, I mean, this multiple cluster is part of that building a community to finally get the humanities back in the seat and to start saying how can we bring these conversations back to the education institutions and also the public. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And as to your fellowship here in Bayreuth, what are the things which are still in your agenda for the time you are here? What is it what you want to, what is it what you still want to do?
Speaker 1: So I am just writing a manuscript, yeah, because being here affords me the time to do it. That's another micro level issue in Kenya, that we have such a huge teaching load. We have so many things we are dealing with. So we are not able to take some time to sit and reflect and write. So that's what I am doing. I am just also building up my research, reading a lot more of the things I wanted to read but didn't have time or access to resources. So that's what I am doing while I am here. I hope I'll be able to have something decent by the time I return.
Speaker 2: But the manuscript is something other than the autoethnography?
Speaker 1: That's the one. That's the one. That's the manuscript. That's the manuscript. And then we are hoping that when we go back, we are hoping to call humanities scholars together and ask the questions we are asking and say, how can the humanities contribute to educational research? We can't always be listening to the policy researchers. We also need to talk about the human beings who are in education and how can we use research to do that. So that's something we want to do when I go back home.
Speaker 2: And as we are talking about the cluster, what is it what you perceive as helpful, valuable, fruitful and what do you see limitations, problems, things that could be done better maybe?
Speaker 1: Um, the conversations. I was craving the conversations. So the cluster center has done that both uh here in Bayreuth and in at home, at the university, at Moi University. Um, so I think it's, I think uh, the important thing is not to underestimate the power of conversations. The thing with conversation is that there is no immediate output. Yeah, so sometimes people can get impatient and say, oh, you're just staying here, you're just meeting, but can you give us something tangible? But there is a lot of power in people meeting and talking and refining their ideas. Yes. So, for me, that's the greatest value. Um, it's also been interesting to be in Germany. Um, this is the country that we are told about, that's not what I've seen. Um, there is a character to Germany that I think needs to be talked about a little more, in terms of its presence in the world, with all the problems. Yeah, because I think um, there is a similarity. I know maybe Germans wouldn't believe this, but sometimes I see a similarity in the way they experience public life in institutions and the way we Kenyans struggle with the same institutions. So there is a solidarity that we can have, but we need to, I think we need to meet more, know each other more, invite each other more to our homes. So I'll invite you to Kenya. Come and meet my people. Yeah, so we need to, I think we need, um, I think it's the conversations are really, really important. And, and that has been the greatest value that I have. And the space to think. The space. Oh my. Kenyan life is so difficult. Um, so the space to think. Yeah. Um, I think what I would just say is that keep adding more and more conversations, more opportunities to meet and be with people. I think that's the power of education. That's what education is. It's people meeting and talking and thinking through things together and sharing their experiences. So that has been the best experience. Uh, I just also want to say I'm also grateful to Moi University and Professor Simatei. I hope he'll hear this. Uh, because it was through him and the Moi University that I am here. And not simply because of knowing about the fellowship, but just that they started, they gave us a platform to have the conversations. So, and this happened at a time I was about to give up. Really, I was about to give up and then they said, can you come and talk about, um, I can't remember what they said, a topic of your choice. And I was like, oh wow, this happens in Kenya. It still happens. So, um, I think what I would say is don't underestimate your impact. Yeah, the impact is there. Uh, it might not be tangible, but it's there. Yeah, I can feel it. Yes.
Speaker 2: Okay, I think there could be no better words to end the conversation. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much too.
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